The Traveller rules are rather intricate, covering every detail of trade. But what you want, and certainly what every RPG needs, is a simplified version where whole groups of matters are resolved in a single end payment or action. I know of no such rules, but since I already have plans for designing such a system for the d00Lite rules I've been working on, I guess now is as good a time as any to start it.

I've been looking to simplify my buying and selling tables, so this will be a good opportunity.

see attached image for my response. :)

A ship has a purchase cost (If you buy one) and a maintenance cost. Or you may outsource your freight hauling. However, these involve different business models.

There are four (4) aspects to providing a product to an end user: production, hauling freight, warehousing and end sales. As an adventurer, you want to be in the business of moving from one place to another, so you want to have control of the freight hauling. As a businessman, you know that others cannot be trusted to sell your goods for you, so you have to either pay employees or contract workers or do it yourself. So that leaves production and warehousing available to be left up to others if you choose. (Though the supply-side [production] also has its adventuring merits, in which case freight hauling could be left to others instead.)

Production
A supplier mines, searches for, grows or manufactures a product. If you wish to be a supplier, the searcher is the most adventurous avenue, such as tomb raiding, animal capturing or salvage ops.

Freight Hauling
Freight hauling allows you not to be concerned with one end or the other, simply cutting deals on both ends, with producers on one end and small business owners on the other, or else simply transporting other people's goods as an outsourced business. (Working for yourself promises more adventure.) Smugglers, freight haulers dealing with illegal goods, often deal with contraband kingpins on one end and local crime lords on the other and have to be smarter than both to survive, or else be under the employ and auspices of a contraband kingpin.

Merchandising
Mercantile business, however, requires the business to maintain production, distribution and end-user sales, even if outsourcing production and distribution. Or they can purchase the supply and take care of, or outsource, distribution. Slave traders outsource slave acquisition on one end and perform their own slave sales on the other at a slave market.

Outsourcing
Outsourcing can allow you to be a freight hauler and also a mercantile business. You may outsource any one of the aspects of trade (Production, hauling and warehousing,) except end sales. You can have others do the purchasing for you, but you must pay employees or contract workers to do your selling or do it yourself.

Outsourcing can actually save you money, but you will not be able to ensure the quality of your product unless the outsourced business maintains integrity, and you can't know that until their reputation is secured. But the greater their reputation, the more expensive they will be.

Game Mechanics

The system will need the following mechanics:

1) Lists of goods that can be mined, searched for, grown or manufactured.
2) Hauling costs by weight and size, and perhaps special care. (As in the case of live cargo.)
3) Ship costs and ship maintenance costs. (Generalized. No need to get into the intricacies of paying individual crew types and other piecemeal costs, which is where Traveller makes it too complicated.)
4) Warehouse costs and warehouse maintenance costs. (Generalized.)
5) Show room costs and show room maintenance costs. (Generalized.)
6) Production and corporate maintenance costs. (Generalized.)
7) Variables affecting product costs.

The sixth simplifies things so much that no adventuring or conflict of any sort can be achieved, but is essentially a mechanical board game. Thus, a certain amount of complexity is necessary to maintain adventure. So the mechanics 1, 2 and 3 are necessary if you want to keep adventure. Mechanics 4 and 5 are necessary if the players want to maintain whole corporations. (Usually they will not be interested in this aspect, with the exception of jasales's maniac crew.) Mechanic 7 is necessary to maintain realism, but is not essential to the operation of the game. So in most games, only mechanics 1, 2 and 3 would ever come into play.

I have some guideline I was working on for FronteirSpace... need to dig them out. From memory....

1.) Build a table of goods
Goods | Buy | Sell | Availability
---------------------------------
Popcorn | 10Cr/1 tonne | 11Cr/ tonne | Common

2.) Determine some modifieres
Modifiers
----------
Common: +20
Uncommon: +10
Rare: -10
Very Rare: -20
Unique: -50
Known Travel Route: +10 for each known travel route connection to another star system. For example; the Perg system isn't heavily populated, however it's a nexus of different destinations in the frontier and has 3 known travel routes. When determining availability of an item add +30.

Does that help?

Travel route costs might be an unnecessary complication from Traveller.

Providing fast and loose modifiers is where I want to go with the buying and selling tables for Quality, Age, Quantity, Size, Availability, Economic Fluctuations and Underground.

I mapped out Trade Guilds the other week.

I want to also go fast and loose in a revision of the financing and haggling rules I have in place.

Mind you, all of this will be usable in any genre, not just science fiction.

___

Does anyone have the Rogue Trader Core Rulebook for Warhammer? It's likely very complicated, but there might be some interesting considerations there.

Larry, how are your modifiers supposed to work, since item costs vary from item to item?

By the way, it is interesting that Traveller charges passengers by the leg.

How detailed do you want to get? I like to use the KEF (Keep 'er Flying/Floating) model for trade. I first found it here:

http://home.earthlink.net/~djackson24/TrampSteamer2.pdf

There are other versions floating around the web for some existing games.

Mitch

Thanks for that, mitchw.

The style of the d00Lite line is to cut through, sacrificing flavor and description for shear simplicity of mechanics, allowing an attractive presentation to provide the flavor.

But your link is good because the more information and mechanics presented, the more informed choices can be made about how to proceed with the simplified approach to take.

The Cost of Doing Business section looks like it has some useful information to consider.

That said, I do like the simplicity of the base ship construction mechanics. It's very much in the spirit of d00Lite.

Trader (WIL)

Buy goods at low prices and sell as high as you can, and try not to get swindled.

» Detect Deception - Detect thieves and false measurements.
» Ear to the Ground - Keep abreast of the latest information valuable to you or others.
» Haggling - Convince other to accept a price in your favor.
» Touting - Attract interest to your shop or product.

I'll work out the specifics of the abilities later. (Feel free to offer ideas.) It can be used untrained.

I kinda like where most of you are going. Simple simple simple.

On thing I thought of.
There may be just two rolls involved.

1 roll to aquire goods - at a desirable cost.
2nd roll to sell them at some level of profit.

So you could make some level of profit on either end or both.

I don't know that you need to know what the goods are, though a table of goods is always nice to have on hand if you do need some flavor.

How rare or not may be important.

Another thought.

Hub worlds would be easy places to find and sell cargo but the profits would be less.

Fringe worlds would be harder to find cargo and sell cargo (due to more specialized needs) but when you do the profits would be good.

???

Maybe?

Yeah, two rolls should do, using opposed haggling checks. But detecting deception with a roll would assist role-playing. Though I would like to add a drawback to that subskill, in that it would involve verbal communication, so that the person may get offended at the implication that they might be deceiving, which could affect the deal. This would force players to have to be discerning in their use of the subskill. A critical failure could put the player at a disadvantage or cause problems in the players ability to barter with anyone.

I think knowing the goods is important for both role-playing and decision-making, and for being able to apply costs and values.

Trading in fringe colonies would be less about money and more about increasing the value of your freight. But yes, it would involve speculation. However, beyond defining speculation for the uninitiated, I don't think it needs any rules.

I realized I had two other skills drawn up that had similar capabilities to the trader, so I merged them and have what I think will be a not too powerful skill. Consider it a bump up from the Detective in Covert Ops. In addition, I'm going to include one more skill, as it pertains in many ways to doing business:

Action Hero (DEX)

Ready for anything and always on the move. Professions: Bounty hunter, repo man, transporter, locator, recovery specialist, extractor, tomb raider, assassin. Take with Warrior, Thief or Negotiator skills for best effect.

Cold as Ice - resistance vs. fear, intimidation and empathy. Does not count as an action.
Free Runner – apply your skill to running, jumping and climbing.
Quickdraw – your holster or sheath for one weapon of choice for each arm is designed for maximum draw speed and you are ready to draw any of those weapons at all times. (One at a time.) You may use your Action Hero skill for those weapons. You cannot be surprised as long as you have one of those weapons. Roll for quickdraw after a roll for surprise; or in place of a roll for surprise when getting the jump. Does not count as an action.
Resourceful - many people owe you favors. Equipment costs half market price, unless you purchase it from someone you do not know. At level 3, acquire 1D/2 favors per adventure, at level 4, acquire 1D, at level 5, acquire 2D favors per adventure, and at level 6 acquire favors from organizational leaders (such as world leaders) available to the character.

Negotiator (WIL)

The face of the deal; a smooth talker and lovable rogue. Professions: trader, investigator, politician, grifter, blackmailer, lawyer, gambler, salesman, spokesman and hostage negotiator.

Charming - able to charm the rattle off a rattlesnake. Attract interest in a product or individual, make or heal breeches with deft words, and fast talk out of slippery messes.
Negotiate - use an opposed check to buy low prices and sell high, negotiate contracts, barter for hostages or special favors, etc. Note: be sure to use circumstances to improve your negotiating leverage or mine them to your advantage.
Gather Information - information is the most valuable currency in the universe. Use it to gain an advantage. The GM must provide accurate and truthful information on a successful roll. Note: you can get help from fellow players.
Network - has informants and connections in many places. At level 3, acquire 1D/2 connections, at level 4, acquire 1D, at level 5, acquire 2D connections, and at level 6 acquire connections to organizational leaders (such as world leaders) available to the character.
Preserved proof - when proof is called for, you have it in spades, backing up contracts and keeping evidence under lock and key. Retroactive, but you must have been aware of the information and in a position, at some point, to acquire the evidence.
Question - interrogate suspects, interview witnesses, ply the unwitting, torture for information, etc.

Trust Your Gut - observe your environment, detect thieves and take calculated risks. Note: be specific.

Deduce - make connections that most would miss due to careful training, brilliant logic and a strong gut instinct. Detect deception and false measurements.
Gamble - proficient at every form of gambling and game of chance. Speculation is your forte. Correct information and evidence can improve your chances.
Sharp Eye - able to find things in places most people would not look and catch details others miss, such as hidden compartments, body language, tells and information queues regarding unspoken details.

Good stuff Ascent!

Okay, I updated the Action Hero (Originally "Seeker") and Negotiator above. They should be fully playable now. Give them a try and let me know what you think.

Edit: Updated Quickdraw in the Action Hero skill to include using the skill for the attack score.

Subjects will include:
Skills
Tech Levels
Trade (Includes Trade Goods and Random Pitfalls Table)
Black Market
Financing
Cost Adjustments
Trade Guilds
Competition
Gambling and Speculating
Swindling
Glossary

Record sheets will include:
Ships and Cargo Manifests
Trade Route Tracker

I will update the following document as I finish portions of the booklet.

The document above has been updated.

First of all Ascent - Georgeous Presentation! Really really nice.

But...and this is just a first glance...the skills look very involved to me. I have not played with them, I have not rolled dice with them, so take that comment for what it is worth. Not much.

More please!

I'm getting an idea of where you are going with this. I look forward to more. I'm unfortunately unable to playtest this at this time.

"The answer you entered for the CAPTCHA was not correct."
Try #4

Yeah, I feel the same way when I look at it. Bill is a bit of a genius when it comes to mashing something down to barebones. I'm having trouble getting into his headspace regarding simple outside-the-box mechanics. I often look at my own stuff and think: "Crap! What absolute d20 tripe and hogwash." But I'm not allowing myself any room to get to d20.

For that reason, I'm grateful for any criticism. I'm kicking my own butt on this and not settling for anything less than what's expected from DWD.

I think your approach is commendable and right on. Put it out there, and then take away and refine as folks play with it a bit. Plus knowing that that is something you are looking for will help folks maybe suggest things. It is really beautiful and they probably don't want to supply any constructive criticism.

I can't tell you how many times I've run across "reviews" that expound about a game book when after trying to use the darn thing for and actualy game you find it is unusable (not saying that yours above is unusable). I need to carve out some time to play with this. Again, looking forward to the next piece, like...trade!

The file above has been updated. Added Basics with part of the Status mechanic and Trade Route tracker.

Upon closer examination, the skills aren't all that involved. They were just wordy with the flavor text. BBF and Covert Ops don't include flavor text in the subskills. Once I removed it and reworded some text, the Negotiator became less wordy than Leader in Covert Ops. Intrepid Adventurer is no more wordy than any of the other skills. I did a word and letter count. But the images being on the side, rather than the top, make the text look longer.

I just eliminated the math from the haggling process. So far I've been able to eliminate a lot of the considerations found in other trading rules, such as applying for loans and other services. You want to get straight into the business end without all the paperwork and as little math as possible. So all that matters is purchasing, selling, speculating and growing your business, and all the pitfalls therein.

Payrolls, miscellaneous expenses, taxes and such are of no concern to honest characters. I will provide a tax pitfalls table for dishonest characters only who seek to enhance the money in their pockets through cheating, unless one of the honest pitfalls is a dishonest accountant.

Sounds like an approach I would definately like.

I updated the file. You should be able to see where I'm going with it. Now is the time to give criticisms. Alternate suggestions more than welcome.

I just had an outside-the-box, possibly BBF-style, epiphany last night at work. I hope you like it. I have to flesh out the details and then I'll post it.

Alright, I updated the document with the essentials of the system I brainstormed last night. I think it will feel like a game without getting too wrapped up in math and paperwork. I'm really pleased with how this is shaping up. It's rules lite compared to other trade systems and I think it may end up complimenting BBF.

Updates include Credit Vouchers, Travel Points, Cargo Units, and Windfalls and Setbacks tables (unpopulated).

If you have suggestions on how to simplify it further, let me know.

I went ahead and added a simplistic ship construction and ship combat system. It's quick and easy. I'll add the ship design sheet later, with example combat. It's more for determining the outcome of interactions with those that would disrupt shipments. It should play more like a board game than a strategy game, though strategy can be involved with the decision of whether you need to fight to the death or can surrender your cargo, as well as how much cargo space to give up for weapons and armor.

The trade system is pretty much done. I just need to add the values and work out the fine details.

Here is the latest update. Take a look at the Business Creation Summary and let me know what details you need to know to round it out.

Also check out the Negotiation rules for haggling and bidding. Various games of chance coming soon.

Also added the Trade Ports Record Sheet which will also need some direction on their use.

Okay, after finally having a peek at Rogue Trader, I found that the simplest approach is as they handle it in their Quickstart Guide and accompanying module. Here is what I'm putting in the Freighters & Traders Rulebook:

Venturing

There are two ways to make a profit in these rules: the easy way and the hard way.

The Easy Way

Many players do not care for the minutia of operation expenses and fenagaling a profit. Instead, they want simply to do the job and then get paid. In this avenue, the GM merely sets up an adventure, usually based upon the freelance (p.) business model, takes on the roll of Captain or entrepreneur, and then rewards the players based upon factors involving their furthering the profit of the adventure. When the adventure ends, the GM declares the profit and divides it among the players. (How lucrative the adventure is depends on the good judgment of the GM.) Though much of this book is dedicated to rules for playing the hard way, the easy way is the recommended path. To play the easy way, simply roll up a character, choose a status and play the adventure with an eye towards greasing the wheels of profit.

Be warned, though, this avenue is not much of a sandbox. The GM controls what the business venture is for the day and the players are expected to support that venture or fail to profit, or at the least acquire a damaging reputation for being fickle.

The Hard Way

Some players like to take command of their destinies and actually manage the affairs of the business to maximize their returns. They will perform price negotiations, purchase ships and properties, perform speculative trades and apply their intelligence to getting the upper hand in a depressed market. This avenue puts the players more in control of their profits. Though much of this book is written for this type of player, it is recommended to go the easy way if you are simply looking to have adventures and gain the resulting profit. To play the hard way, use the Business Creation Summary on the next page. This is a wide open sandbox, and the GM is expected to facilitate player decisions.

The GM should familiarize their self with the hard way rules in order to design adventures for players to play the easy way. Though one or more players in the party could play the hard way, taking care of the business end, while the other players play the easy way.

I will continue to do what I can to make it less hard going the hard way.

Oh, wow. Will have to settle down and read this properly sometime, looks great from skimming I gave it just now. Serious kudos!

Please let me know of any suggestions you have, no matter how many you might have. (The more the better for this document. Even a complex idea might trigger an idea for a simpler idea or verify the effectiveness of a mechanic that's already there, or indicate a need for adjustment.) I'm relying on other game systems and doing what I can to eliminate unnecessary complications. I want to include only what is absolutely essential to eking out a potentially substantial profit with the simplest mechanics.