Hello all.
I've been coming back to BBF on/off since it released. I read somewhere that a revised edition of the rules are in development. Is this a thing?
Mike
BareBones Fantasy RPG is not associated with Skaldcrow Games' Bare Bones Multiverse, despite similar names. Check out Glenn's products by clicking here.
Yep, we're working on it! We aren't quite close enough to share details, but we'll be doing an open call for playtesting when we're ready. Want to get this right... need it to be lite and simple while allowing options and giving some of (not all of) the improvements that have been made to the system with subsequent games. Feel free to give your wish list!
Any ETA on the playtest? I have about 4 groups that I can test it out with lol XD
Sadly no ETA yet. It's still early. We develop a lot, then remove some, then develop, then remove. So easy to build on the d00lite framework that it's always tempting to add more... but the design philosophy of the game is always to keep it lite at the table. So it's a process. I'll be in a position to share more as time goes on, but we're a bit away from playtesting. Mostly, it all depends on availability of me and Eric Piper, whom I'm working with on this project.
Great to hear, thanks!
Okay a wish list. let me see:
I actually like the system. It is simple and clear. You get to accumulate and then spend experience points a bit like money; you pay the EXP and buy the product i.e. more skill levels. Just 6 levels of advancement is a bit limited and some attenuation of the skill advancement would be nice, like +5 instead of +10 at levels 4-9 but all of this is detail and details change the feel of a game.
What is really want is lots more spells, many more monsters, more referee's notes and plenty of NPC's. FS has two big A4 books and BB could really use at least 1.
I want the new book in an A4 format. A5 doesn't do it in RPG for me. I want all of the relevant already published supplements in the new big A4 book too.
We just don't know what the future holds: Maybe there will and maybe there won't be a 3rd edition. Can't we just pretend that there won't and make this version really special. What I mean is please don't publish a work improved yet still small and in development. Make it the real deal, something special.
I think that you have a unique product here, It's like D&D meets Frontierspace. High fantasy is so much fun and a huge market. I'd love this game to go mainstream.
By the way the name of the product is terrible. Didn't somebody suggest Dragon Bones or something? Bare Bones means just the minimal and I think that a lot of gamers really like this game and want the fully fledged system.
P.S. If you need play testers. I've got 5 middle aged guys who even remember 1st edition AD&D and are willing to put in some hours.
Thanks for the feedback, galinor3!
The physical size of the book was our attempt to see how much goodness we could pack into a small product. I agree that 6 levels is limiting and we always intended to make levels 7-10 that provided some neat special high powered abilities, but never got around to developing that higher-level-play handbook.
Yes, the 2nd edition is currently being developed with 10 skill levels, and I'll post here and on social media when we're ready to seek playtesters so keep tuned! The 2nd edition will also have more spells, a few new core races, and even some more skills. But we're still trying to keep it as light as we can.
We're also considering a full sized book, like FS! But it's a hard decision because people LIKE the small and light nature of the product.
Could you point us exactly which Social Media shall we watch for playtesting calls? Google+ is now history and I found at least 2 or 3 pages on Facebook regarding Dwd and BareBones and all seems unmaintained too :(
I am playing BareBones for what seems like always and would love to get involved. I will also post some inspirational/feedback topics soon, maybe you'll find them helpful anyhow :)
So far the development has been taking place internally. But we do make posts occasionally on a social media platform called mewe - feel free to join up there and share your experiences and engage others.
I really suck as social media. I need to get more involved and maybe get something on facebook, where people tend to expect to find such things. *sigh*
Will combat still support fairly robust miniature use? I use miniatures and like combat to be an exercise in using tactics associated with positioning and choices made looking down on the actual battlefield. The RPG industry seems to be trying to leave behind the Grognards who have been playing the longest (and are supporting them with our $$) in favor of artsy farts narrative play. Not saying rules light narrative games don’t have their place...but solid 3D miniature combat does as well, and not just a hand wave. I would personally like to see a tad MORE (not a ton) rules geared towards this...like the modifier tables in STar Frontiers.
And YES, a full sized rulebook...so sick of all these digest sized books. Tiny print, and don’t lay flat during gameplay. These are fine for the scads of people who DON’T actually play games, but I have NO idea why this trend has continued.
Well...that was sort of grumpy ranting, sorry.
No worries! Yes, we'll still use the same "spaces" scale for things. 1 spaces = 1 grid square/hex is easy math for us Grognards. We play with minis too. We generally try to keep the game light though, we likely won't spell out tons of rules for facing, flanking, line of sight, etc. We lean on GMs to tailor the game to their liking, bringing their experiences from other games with them.
Bill, I'd like to add on my opinion on BBF vs FrontierSpace: if BBF 2e should ever be out, I'd really like to see it returning to the Levelx10 + 1/2 Ability + P/S scoring system. There is something about FS's way of calculating scores which bugs me, and I think it has something to do with too much math per dice roll. I have no issue with math in games (I love crunchy wargames), but I think adding and subtracting too many things per roll just takes the fun out of it, especially when you are allowed to take multiple actions. Plus having BBF's way of calculating skill scores feels better (e.g. "Scout 48%" as compared to "Tech = +0" to represent your character being average at something.
Additionally, I think BBF 2e would benefit from having more streamlined/condensed "disadvantage" and "difficult task" mechanics, which I find to be two sides of the same coin. I use GM fiat a lot of times because I don't want to refer to the book in the middle of combat to decide if doing a difficult action would count as a disadvantage or otherwise.
Well...if we’re throwing out “wishlists”, mine is going to be either VERY popular or unpopular...
1). The core game/system doesn’t need any work. It’s a great combination of the rules you actually need with the addition of rules you won’t bother using, but are nice to have. There is no real reason to add MORE of those rules that seem “nice to have”, but hardly anybody uses. All that does is clutter up a completely functional game system and make a rulebook unwieldy.
2). More Fun Stuff! In my 40 years of role playing, I’ve noticed 1 major thing...people don’t want more stupid rules, they want more FUN STUFF! We all switched from Basic D&D to AD&D so we could have more character classes, spells, Magic items, and monsters...the majority of people ignored 75% of the actual RULES that came with AD&D...we were still playing basic with more fun stuff. IMHO, leave the rules the same and add more fun stuff...more spells, more magic items, more monsters, more character races....that’s all! Characters are versatile enough already, the rules are concise and complete, the combat and task resolution are robust...don’t clutter a good system, don’t add unnecessary bells and whistles, don’t try to add artsy fartsy mechanics, don’t ruin classic gaming with confusing “innovation”.
3). Presentation. Good lord, make it a full sized book, not digest sized...it’s a reference book for use, not a pocket novel for your lunch break. And PLEASE use a 12 point font! 75% of the people who have expendable income and buy RPGs by the boatload are over 40...the #1 complaint: These stupid small fonts (especially these half sized ones in digest sized books). More thematic art! Art not only looks good, but it helps you quickly navigate to the pages and sections you need. 2 columns, big print, lots of art...and keep the awesome monster illustrations just as they are. Perfect for quick location and identification without locking you into someone else’s vision of what a monster should look like.
4). Setting...some people love pre-made settings, some people HATE them. Take the house setting OUT of the core rulebook. Make your game friendly to the old school half of the community who create and want to play in their own setting. A “generic” fantasy game doesn’t need to give itself identity by adding a setting...it’s a great option in a SEPARATE book. When it’s included in a rulebook, it’s like a shadow looming over a gamer who wants to use his own world...I know that sounds dramatic, but an included setting just implies that the rules are for use there, it limits the user friendliness of the book, and gives a GMs players the wrong impression.
5). Support...just adventures, More fun stuff (which includes your cards), and that setting.
MHO...I don’t want to see a bloated 200 page Frontier Space type book...sometimes less is more, which is why the OSR is taking over fantasy gaming. This game shouldn’t be afraid to embrace and be old school, but with its fresh coat of paint. Right now it’s something special...expand on that quality, don’t accidentally ruin it, like so many second and 3rd editions do by making it into something bloated and ugly. Just more fun stuff, a pleasant book to look at and USE, and a focus on spreading the word so this gem reaches a larger audience.
Of the 3 d00lite games, IMO Covert Ops does the print format best. There is enough material in the core rulebook to function as a player's and GM's guide, and that is sufficient to start running a game. Meanwhile the additional GM Operational Manual has a lot of nice optional rules to tack on as needed; I ran about 10 sessions before I started reading the Operational Manual.
On the topic of 'fun', that might be subjective depending on how one defines it. My thoughts are that character customisation options are fun, but too much to keep track of isn't. I'm not sure how one can strike a balance in this regard, but I'd certainly like to see the skills being able to specialise so that they can have perks and bonuses at more tasks. Examples of specialisations done well are Covert Ops' Martial Artist's moves and BBF's Spellcaster's spells. Very flavourful in tying the narrative with the numbers. FrontierSpace's Skill Beenefits are also fun, though I didn't like the Skill Specialisations idea and would have preferred that as an optional rule.
Additionally, I think BBF 2e would benefit from having more streamlined/condensed "disadvantage" and "difficult task" mechanics, which I find to be two sides of the same coin. I use GM fiat a lot of times because I don't want to refer to the book in the middle of combat to decide if doing a difficult action would count as a disadvantage or otherwise.
Then you're going to like BBF2.
We are keeping the % score with the skill, as 1st edition. The separation of ability from skill was something we believe fits well for our preferred flavor of sci fi (i.e. FrontierSpace), but we prefer a lighter simpler system for fantasy. We are tweaking the skills some, so that having one ability tied to one skill makes more sense, which means we'll have a few more skills in the list, but we're going to allow players to begin with 2 first-level skills to balance it out.
Skill score = Ability/2 + Level Bonus + Affinity Bonus.
Where:
Level Bonus is skill level x 10 up until 5th level. Skill level 6-10 has some different rules though.
Affinity Bonus (previously called "P/S" bonus) is often the +20 or +10 or whatever you allocated. However, there are more options during character creation for choosing what your affinity bonus is. More on this as development solidifies!
1). The core game/system doesn’t need any work. It’s a great combination of the rules you actually need with the addition of rules you won’t bother using, but are nice to have. There is no real reason to add MORE of those rules that seem “nice to have”, but hardly anybody uses. All that does is clutter up a completely functional game system and make a rulebook unwieldy.
Amen! We still don't think a player or GM needs a hundred rules for a hundred scenarios. For instance, in D&D every skill has an entry, where DCs are described for a bunch of things a player might try. Who looks these up during play? I never do. I always just adjudicate based on situation. There's no reason to go into such detail for every skill. We try to make it about rulings, not rules.
Second edition has a handful more core races, more skills, and options for character creation through Affinities (which can be taken to make a skill more useful/tailored to your build, instead of a +20 or +10 P/S bonus in a skill), more spells (with tweaked game balance, with a separate list for clerics). We have no intention on cluttering combat rules and such. In many regards, most of the "rules" framework are unchanged. We did test a spell point system, tweaked it several times, but abandoned it in favor of just rule-tweaking the spells themselves.
Yup. That's the plan. Presentation for the first book was limited by my inexperience and desire to make a product that felt light. Haha you like the silhouettes? We were planning on getting custom art for the critters, as the cheap silhouettes were one of the biggest criticisms of our in-book bestiary.
The lite setting we put in the book was just an example setting, not really tied to anything in the rest of the book. We felt it was important to provide something for starting new players, and to build somewhat of a framework for other folks to make adventures. It was only 5 pages of 6x9 material slapped at the end of the book, plus a map. You are the first person I've ever feed back that it is unnecessary, and so far every adventure anyone has ever written and published is set there. Do you really feel strongly that having a broad brushstroke few page setting at the back of the book isn't helpful? Or maybe do you reject the presentation of it, want it presented as more optional or as a separate download?
Adventures are tough to write and make us very little money (especially because everyone wants them to be $2 or less, or free). I know they help a game's robustness and we plan on writing them, but we really hope the community steps up with adventure writing too!
Ironically, if you took the current 6x9 book and put it into a 12 point font 8.5x11 book and add the new races, skills, spells you request, it WILL be a 200 page book like Frontier Space. I can't add the FUN STUFF without adding to page count, ya know? :-)
On the topic of 'fun', that might be subjective depending on how one defines it. My thoughts are that character customisation options are fun, but too much to keep track of isn't. I'm not sure how one can strike a balance in this regard, but I'd certainly like to see the skills being able to specialise so that they can have perks and bonuses at more tasks. Examples of specialisations done well are Covert Ops' Martial Artist's moves and BBF's Spellcaster's spells. Very flavourful in tying the narrative with the numbers. FrontierSpace's Skill Beenefits are also fun, though I didn't like the Skill Specialisations idea and would have preferred that as an optional rule.
Fun is subjective, that is fact! Playtesting resulted in the final products that were published. Some of the rules (like specialization) were indeed initially optional. Some of the currently optional rules were indeed core. Until playtest resulted in further tweaking. I guess try to get involved in the playtest when we start making public requests for testers!!
We do tend to focus our options and rules additions on ways to define/tweak characters, rather than ways to define/tweak rules. We want any level of complexity to be between play when DP are spent, not at the table when swords and spells are brought to bear.
Yup. That's the plan. Presentation for the first book was limited by my inexperience and desire to make a product that felt light. Haha you like the silhouettes? We were planning on getting custom art for the critters, as the cheap silhouettes were one of the biggest criticisms of our in-book bestiary.
Adventures are tough to write and make us very little money (especially because everyone wants them to be $2 or less, or free). I know they help a game's robustness and we plan on writing them, but we really hope the community steps up with adventure writing too!
Ironically, if you took the current 6x9 book and put it into a 12 point font 8.5x11 book and add the new races, skills, spells you request, it WILL be a 200 page book like Frontier Space. I can't add the FUN STUFF without adding to page count, ya know? :-)
Sounds great! I think we have a lot in common. I’m especially excited about the changes in font size and book size...and yes, a big thick book is fine, ha ha.
I do love those silhouettes...I mean, LOVE. I think it’s one of the best things about the graphic presentation of both the rulebook AND the adventures. I like art, and I like monster illustrations...but #1...everyone does it, #2 the silhouettes are a great tool for quick reference, #3 the silhouettes spark the imagination while promoting a GM to make narrative descriptions of what that monster looks like in his world, #4 they take up less space, so less pages of flipping when you are looking for a monster (it’s a utility section, not a section for leisure reading and art perusal), #5 Saves money for more great scene art to set the mood and provide reference points in the book. All MHO.
The setting thing is a personal rant :). I understand that a lot of people like a setting, and they think it gives a game a unique identity. I’m hopelessly “do it yourself” old school, so for me a setting is annoying, and an integrated setting that makes a game less “generic” is a death blow. That said, I’m guilty of having shared a couple editions of my own fantasy setting (The Phoenix Barony), so I guess I can’t complain when other people want to share theirs :).
Thank you for responding to my selfish ranting...I know you have a lot of people to please besides me :) Sounds like the game is in competent loving hands with enough things to keep me intrigued.
Maybe I’ll write (as in...do all the typing and layout and illustrating, for other people to read) an adventure or two for the new edition if it motivates me...but I’ve kinda reverted to my OSR dungeon crawling with miniatures ways, so people looking for a lot of new school artsy fartsy narration might be disappointed, ha ha. Of course, I got out of the “publishing” business a while back...so we’ll see...
Great to hear! I'm really looking forward to seeing what the team will come up with for BBF2e. :)
Any update on the progress of BBF2?
Thanks for the interest. BBF2 is still a thing! I don't have much official to share quite yet, but I can share with you the following regarding the current state of the development documents, specifically referring to SKILLS:
1) We are keeping things like BBF, where each skill has its own score, rather than evolving it to work like FrontierSpace, where scores were just modifiers to ability checks.
2) We are keeping skill levels in the game, but letting them go from level 1 to 10. Levels 1-5 offer +10 per level to the score. Levels 6-10 are exceptional and offer only +5 per level (diminishing returns), but give you more Affinity in that skill (see item 5, below).
3) Since skill scores are each tied to one ability like original BBF, we added a couple skills to separate out confusing things. For instance, instead of having two scores for the Warrior skill, we now have a Warrior (STR-derived) and a Marksman (DEX-derived) skill. We did some similar things to the Thief, Scholar, Leader, and others in order to make more sense. Now, it's very clear that all aspects of a Thief skill are based on DEX, for instance, rather than the confusion of BBF1 where a high DEX made you a better liar.
4) Since there are now a few more skills added to the game to accommodate the above items, we are permitting starting characters to have a level in two different skills. So if you create a ranger type character, you can give him a starting level in Scout and Marksman. A paladin character might start with a level in cleric and a level in warrior. You get the idea.
5) The term "P/S" has been removed. Instead, players have "Affinity." Starting characters have 3 Affinities to allot among skills. The basic use of Affinity is a +10 to a skill's score, so it still works like the "P/S" bonus. However, if you want more fine-tuning of your character, each skill has a small list of Affinity Benefits, so you don't HAVE to take the +10 to the Warrior score when you place an Affinity there, you might instead take the "Tough as Nails" Affinity Benefit instead, giving you 1 point of permanent DR that stacks with armor. Or you might choose "Iron Fist" to let your fists cause 1D damage. Things like that. The neat thing is that Affinities are optional; if you want to keep the game super lite, just take the three +10 Affinities, done.
Bill, I like the affinities approach. Still simple and not over powered.
Thanks for the endorsement! So far it's working pretty cool. We just have to avoid the scope-creep of D&D's "Feats" by limiting the affinities to a finite list and not expanding that list with supplements much! Since you just start with 3 affinities and won't see another until you develop a skill to an epic level, it keeps them from being the fluff Feats became in 3rd Edition D&D, while giving some epicness to epic skilled characters!
I'm really hyped for it! These changes sound great. Do you think it'll be released this year?
I hope so, but it's more likely going to be a 2021 release. We're not a big company... we all have to work around our day jobs and family time :-)
Any news?
Been waiting for information on this as well.
I just recently discovered BBF and I must say it fits perfectly with what I've been searching for! I love the system so much!
But as I was getting ready to order a hardback copy I saw this post...
Don't want to jump the gun if there is an even more awesome version in the works.
Any update on v.2?
But as I was getting ready to order a hardback copy I saw this post...
Don't want to jump the gun if there is an even more awesome version in the works.
Any update on v.2?
Glad you found us! We have been mulling over a second edition for some time. It's quite difficult to get it right, capture the simplicity of the first edition while still providing some developed content. It's not going to be available this year for sure, but maybe next.
Brilliant!
I fully understand the difficulty you guys are having, both with tweaking an already great game but also finding the time for it. It's a massive undertaking!
I think I'll go ahead with the hardback and just hope for the best next year :)
Thank you for the update!
Just saying, count me in for 2e... especially if there is playtest slots eventually available. :)
BE HEROIC!
Bear the Forrver DM