DwD Studios

I completely agree. This topic was also discussed years ago in regards to other games, like D&D. The issue is, how do you balance that with the game?

If you want to be realistic, plate mail was also a status symbol, particularly the artistic gothic styled platemails of the Italians, and it cost well over it's weight in gold. An enemy knew the value of a knight in capture based solely on the quality and design of his armor. Considering the amount of time and energy that goes into making it, do you simply make it cost 100,000 gp? In some cases, entire armories labored for a year on a really good suit of plate. Also, in some places, depending on where you were, if you were wearing plate and weren't a noble, you'd (at the least) get mobbed, stripped of your armor, and beaten within an inch of your life. At worst, tortured to death for pretending to be nobility. Even freemen didn't have 'rights' as we know them today. In some cases it's about more than what's just realistic, but practicality, game balance, and world design.

Again, sorry to digress, but how do you balance that in game mechanics?

Yes, it definitely needs to be much more expensive than bandedmail, and bandedmail should be a little more expensive than it currently is.

1st level characters should not have easy access to platemail. Perhaps pricing it beyond reason would cause GM's to think about how their characters can acquire it through story.

Fun fact, apparently "Banded Mail" isn't historically accurate or may have even existed.Source

Banded mail is another name for Roman Centurion armor (segmented armor). It refers to the use of bands of iron overlapped. Not as complete as plate mail. Splint mail is a completely different type of armor, as shown in the splint mail Wikipedia page.

The references on that banded mail page are limited and out of date. The Claude Blair article ("European Armour circa 1066 to circa 1700", 1959) doesn't mention Roman Centurion armor at all. It is referring to a misinterpretation of carvings and other art of the middle ages supposedly depicting banded mail, but are likely other types of armor simplified, causing the misrepresentation.

I thought that was just "Splint Mail" any way you shape it. Also, at the bottom of the splint mail page: "Fictional armour types : Banded mail"

This looks like a job for someone in the SCA!

Perhaps "banded mail" specifically referred to a medieval form of segmented armor that was never shown to exist. But in my research on it, I found references to Roman armor, as mentioned in the banded mail page, rather than to splint mail. However you slice it, though, I'm certain it is meant to depict Centurion segmented armor. Perhaps, though, it could be called segmented mail in future references.

Since this is just a game though, and we're trying to make sure the game is balanced, do the stats as written, reflect something balanced? Or unbalanced in regards to the statistics they provide and the potential use by players? That's the real key.

Could the higher STR requirements of Plate mail be assumed to come from improper fitting? Almost every set of this armor type required special fitting and alteration for maximum effectiveness-so why not assume that the Standard Plate mail is salvaged refit or unpaid stock with a hasty alteration? the higher STR requirements come from the less than perfect fit.

Leaving the Plate mail entry as is based on the previous assumption, you could then add a separate entry for 'Perfected Plate mail'-mail that has been perfectly altered or custom built over several months. It would have a much lower STR cost, perhaps an additional 1 or 2 DR, an astronomical price and a LONG waiting list...and mere adventurers must stand in line behind Royalty, IF they are allowed to have such a high Status gift at all!

The correct name in the platemail entry should say "full platemail".

The cost of making full platemail made it prohibitive to any but special orders or mass production for the elite segment of an army (not for civil purchase). Thus full plate mail bought by an individual was custom made for the individual. Unless an individual acquired spoils of war, they would not find plate armor at a shop, as scavenging non-combatants were often executed. Spoils of war were usually melted down if they had no monetary value or no bragging rights. Those with high value were kept as treasures or trophies, usually within the king's stores. Maybe some was salvaged for armies, but only a lord with successful business ventures could afford to buy armor. Armor was usually paid for by the kingdom.

In game terms, full platemail should not be available to low level characters, except in large battles as provisioned by the kingdom and property thereof. Otherwise, they can tend to be careless and not fear damage as much as they should. It also makes for flavor within the story.

However, there was a form of platemail worn by some infantry, known as three quarter plate, which is really half plate, that covered their upper bodies, but left their lower bodies exposed, meant to protect them against splintering weapons. This, though, would require a special rule governing upper and lower body differences in protection. However, this was well into the age of powder shot, and again, the kingdom paid for it specifically for war.

As for differences in quality, I am working on a gadget system covering this. For platemail, there were various qualities, of course, that covered maneuverability through hinged or tied parts, and armor with ridges was found to be stronger and more durable.

By the way, the Gothic style was produced by the Germans (thus the name), and not Italians. Italians produce their own ornate armors of renown called "Milanese".

I think you're trying too hard to match realism to a game. For purposes of game balance, it works out ok. If, in your game, you wish to lower the STR requirement, then do so, but for purposes of rules in a fantasy game, what does reality matter so long as it's balanced with the rest of the game mechanics?

Hope you don't mind me chiming in.
Design decision; the higher the DR the higher STR and gp cost.
We choose plaetmail to have the highest DR, thus the highest requirement.

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Even more balance can be achieved by lowering the STR requirement and raising the cost considerably. You all chose to use the STR requirement to balance it, I say let's discuss an option where the cost balances it against a realistic STR requirement. Economy is the real world's balancing mechanic. Why not in a game?

...Achievement unlocked.

I didn't intend for this to be a recital of platemail's current stats. Of course balance was the goal of those stats. I don't think it has been achieved in any RPG to date that I'm aware of.

As I said, I think platemail is too easily acquired, which forces other mechanics to have to be balanced against it at lower levels. You all disagree. Hoorah. If anyone is interested in finding a realistic balance, let's hear it and work out a new balance together.

This is a matter of acquisition. Balancing the requirements is great and all, but if the benefits of the armor are too easily acquired for those with the STR and nobody else, there's still an imbalance. Those with high starting STR are made uber early on, and those who have to work toward that STR have to wait. That's not balance. That's bias. But if you use economics as your equalizer, then everyone is on the same footing.

Okay, this is the last I think I have in me to comment on this.

Economics is a poor modifier to measure and balance anything by. For one, everyone has the ability, at least in BBF, to buy whatever armor they can afford with the strength they start with. It's no more or less fair to have a high Str on the armor. Nobody is likely to begin with enough STR to buy plate anyway. So by the time you earn the DP to purchase the STR, you almost certainly have enough money to buy the armor. Even as much as 10k gold is generally not that hard to acquire. Realistically, bad guys save loot. Good guys go beat up bad guys and acquire said loot. You cannot avoid your players accumulating money. I don't think I've ever been in a game where we had less than a few thousand gold within a couple 4 or 5 sessions. We're pretty anal about collecting every scrap of sellable merchandise, but still, you get the point.

Second, if you want to get all realistic, you're forgetting that plate was only purchased by people who could afford not only to buy it, but to wear it and pay the ransom after they were captured. It was like a big flashing neon marker in war that you were the 'target' to be taken. It was NOT average dungeon wear, as used in fantasy games. It was hot and uncomfortable and padding in this time period was generally straw, not cooshy comfy cotton quilted lining. In addition, if a noble caught you wearing it (and you were not noble) you were summarily executed, on the spot, and immediately. They didn't have a court of appeals, or even a fair legal system, and they wouldn't fight you one on one, because you were beneath them. They'd have their 20 knights just take care of it en masse. Violence was so bad back then the Catholic church had to pass two ecclesiastical laws to try (emphasis on try) to get people to stop killing people on pilgrimages and holy days. There was no police and no wide spread law. If someone disliked you, they likely just killed you. Your lord might avenge you if you were valuable enough to him.

Last, I am reminded of a piece of advice my father gave me one time. I was upset a small group of people at school thought I was a jerk. He said "Son, if one person thinks you're a jerk, he's likely wrong. If two or three, even four or five think so, it might be true, but it's not likely. On the other hand, if everyone or most everyone does, maybe you ought to look in the mirror for the source of your problem."

I'm NOT saying you're a jerk, but the same principle applies. If everyone disagrees with you, perhaps it's not everyone else.

TLDR; Make it a house rule and let it go. Even put it in the house rules section as your own personal house rules if you like, but then enough is enough.

I'm not quite sure where you're getting your info. No offense meant, but your ransom comment seems pulled out of air.

First, knights didn't go around in their armor all day, and second, to capture and ransom a knight during a battle would be a waste of resources. That's why there are no grand stories about knight ransoms. Taking prisoners in battle was not common back then, because they either fought to the death or whole segments fled. And seeing as most battles involving knights were between kingdoms (because knights were generally in servitude to a kingdom,) it wasn't common for there to be just one knight on the field. (In fact, there were often hundreds on the field.) And seeing as nobles were keen not to be accosted along the road, they tended not to go gallivanting around in their armor along the road where they could be assaulted by bandits, they weren't likely kidnapped because they were wearing armor. Kidnappings were common back then, but they were usually taken from their homes, from the inn they visit, or from along the road, NOT from battle.

I don't really care how many disagree. I've learned from nearly 20 years experience that an internet forum is not really a good indicator of whether you are or aren't the one in the right or wrong. There is no right or wrong here anyway. I simply want to discuss a means of balancing by means of cost. People can disagree all day long, but that doesn't address the purpose of this thread.

Telling someone "enough is enough" indicates that you have taken it upon yourself to judge what they can and can't talk about in their own thread. You're the guest. You're welcome to back out if you don't wish to contribute anything positive to the discussion. Your dissent has been duly noted.

"Bad guys" don't "realistically" horde loot. Mythically, some mythical creatures have horded loot, such as dragons. In RPG's, every monster with half a brain hordes some amount of loot or other monsters are simply guarding loot. Realistically, parties of people killing to receive gold are known as raiders or bandits. (a.k.a, "bad guys") The amount of treasure discovered is up to the GM, not the game rules. If the game rules establish an economy, then it makes it easy for the GM to adjust the availability of objects by adjusting the treasure found in relation to that economy. Thus, easily adjusted balance.

I already addressed the use of STR requirement for balance, so I won't repeat myself here.